The Children of Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran

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I know very little about Thomas Neill and Agnes Feran. The 1841 Census says Agnes was born in Ireland but I have not found a census where Thomas is recorded. It does seem clear that the Neils are usually referred to as Neils, Neals or McNeils and only rarely as O’Neils. It is certainly true that there are very many more O’Neils in the Catholic church registers that there are Neils or McNeills. It is possible that Thomas was Protestant and was born in Scotland and Agnes was Catholic and born in Ireland. Again the Catholic church registers are full of marriages between Protestants and Catholics. The question of their nationalities and their religions remain a matter of speculation. This is also true of their children.

Elizabeth Neil or McNeill or Wilkie or Johnstone born c. 1819

I have been unable to find a birth or baptism for Elizabeth Neil. We first hear of her at her marriage to Daniel WIlkie on 1 Dec 1840.

Marriage of Elizabeth McNeill and Daniel Wilkie 31 Dec 1840

I found the following entry in the Old Parish Registers for Glasgow.

I did not know why there is wasn’t a name after the “married by….” but there are a lot of entries that are the same on the same page. I looked at Find My Past for the Catholic Marriage Registers and found this:

Both these register entries imply that Elizabeth and Daniel were born in Glasgow. The first record of the marriage merely says that they were “of this parish” but the second record of the marriage from the Catholic Registers of St Andrew Parish says they are “natives of Glasgow”. I suppose that both of these descriptions could be open to interpretation and it is possible that “of this parish” or “natives of Glasgow” could simply mean that they were both currently resident there rather than it being their place of birth. We have other information from the 1841 Census.

Daniel Wilkie and Elizabeth Neal : 1841 Census St Ninian Street, Gorbals, Glasgow

Although only the words St Ninian are written in the left address column, I think it is clear that this means St Ninian’s Street. The enumerator’s description of the route is:

The 1841 Census was taken on 6 June 1841, which is six months after Daniel and Elizabeth married so it is not clear why she is not Elizabeth Wilkie; in fact here she is Elizabeth Neal (sic). Daniel is a Dyer. She is recorded as being a H.L.W. Her father was also a handloom weaver and handloom weaving was, at least in the early years of the industry, a family affair. There is another handloom weaver in the lodgings, two power loom weavers, two tailors and a washerwoman. Both Daniel and Elizabeth are said to have been born in Ireland which raises questions but I feel that it is entirely likely that Mrs Brogan, the lodging keeper and head of household, answered some of the census questions for her lodgers. Certainly ten years later, at the next census, they are said to be born in Glasgow.

At the 1851 Census they are living at 85 Main Street, Gorbals and they have three children, which I will turn to shortly, but there was a lot more in this census return than I expected as at this address there were other McNeils living there.

Daniel Wilkie and Elizabeth McNeill : 1851 Census – 85 Main Street, Gorbals, Lanarkshire, Scotland

This census entry was quite a find. I had already looked at this household some time ago but this was before I knew that John Neil had a sister who married a Wilkie; nor did I know of the other sister recorded here. It is actually Elizabeth’s death registration that ties all these people together but I will get to that later.

The census return shows that Daniel Wilkie is now aged 31 and is a Journeyman Dyer. Elizabeth, his wife, is 30. They have three children living with them, William aged 10 who is a scholar, James, aged 4, and Elizabeth, aged 2. In the household are John McNeil, brother-in-law aged 15 and an apprentice tobacco spinner. His age would mean that he was born circa 1836 and convinces me that he is my 2 x great grandfather. There is an Agnes McNeil, sister-in-law, who is aged 26 and unmarried – surely a sister to Elizabeth and John. She is a steam loom weaver. There is another McNeil, James McNeil who is not said to be related, is a lodger, unmarried and aged 37 (which would make him born in 1814) He is a boot and shoemaker like the other two lodgers – William and Patrick Brawley. All the residents are said to have been born in Glasgow which contradicts the entry for Daniel and Elizabeth at the 1841 Census where all the lodgers in the lodging house are said to be from Ireland.

In summary, then, Elizabeth McNeill has married and lives with her husband, a sister and a brother as well as her children. There are clearly some missing children when looking at the ages of the children; William was born 1841, James 1847 and Elizabeth 1849. I have only been able to find the births of two of them.

Children of Daniel Wilkie and Elizabeth Neil/McNeil

Baptism of William Wilkie 13 Jun 1841 St Andrew Parish, Glasgow

Baptism of James Wilkie c 1847

I could not find a birth or baptism for James Wilkie as seen at the 1851 census.

Baptism of Elizabeth Wilkie 12 Mar 1849 St Andrew Parish, Glasgow

There was a possible other child in the Scotland’s People indexes showing an Agnes Wilkie, child of Daniel Wilkie and Bettie Wilkie born and baptised 6 August 1843. This rather suggests that she died the same day as her birth.

I tried to find Daniel and Elizabeth at the 1861 Census but could not find either of the. I know from her death registration that she married twice so I looked for a death for Daniel Wilkie but, again, came up with nothing.

Second Marriage of Elizabeth McNeill or Wilkie to William Johnstone

I could not find this marriage despite a long search of many possibilities. I did, however, find a census return for Elizabeth and her second husband and this is validated by the fact that the address at the census was the same as her address at the time of her death.

1871 Census – 28 Erroll Street, Govan, Hutchesontown, Lanarkshire, Scotland

I have no other reference to Elizabeth of WIlliam between the Census and her death 20 months later.

Death of Elizabeth Johnstone 10 Dec 1872 at 28 Erroll Street, Glasgow

It is this death registration that ties all the family together and shows how I have come to the conclusions above. Her parents are named as are her two husbands, the former of which lived at 85 Main Street in 1851. This enabled us to add Agnes and confirm Charles as siblings of Elizabeth and therefore of John Neil.

I tried again looking for their marriage in Glasgow and Dundee but I found nothing. I did not find a death for him either so that is where this story stops – for the moment.

Agnes Neil b c 1824 in Lanarkshire

I have not been able to find a birth or baptism for Agnes. It is possible that she was the sponsor at the birth of her sister, Elizabeth’s, child (Elizabeth Wilkie) whose baptism took place in the parish of St John in Glasgow 12th March 1849. Certainly she is present in Elizabeth’s household at 85 Main Street, Gorbals, Glasgow at the taking of the 1851 Census. As we have seen above, her sister, ELizabeth, is married to Daniel WIlkie and they have three children in the household as well as Agnes and Elizabeth and Agnes’s brother, John McNeil, – my 2x grandfather. She is a Steam Looom Weaver, aged 26.

I could not find Agnes after this. Unmarried at 26 it is possible that she did not marry at all; in any case I have not found a marriage for her. Nor have I found a further census return that mentions her. I found a death registration that has intriguing details but the age given does not fit well. According to the 1851 she was aged 26 so born circa 1824/5. The Agnes McNeil I found was aged 68 at her death in 1886 which would make her born circa 1818. Even so this information may not be reliable becasue she died in a poorhouse.

She is a millworker, her father is Thomas McNeil and her mother is Martha Agnes Ferns. This is a bit of a coincidence but I have not found a way to connect this Agnes to mine – apart from the obvious!

Charles Neil b c 1826 in Lanarkshire

The other document that James sent me was the death registration of Charles Neil, the Charles we had seen at the 1841 Census when he lived with his mother and brother, John, at Muirhead Street, Gorbals. I have not managed to find a birth registration for him and this has led to some confusion about his actual year of birth. His death registration suggests 1821 but the 1841 Census suggests 1827. I did find an interesting 1851 Census return for a Charles McNeil living at 85 Main Street, Gorbals – the same building as Elizabeth Wilkie or McNeil that we saw above.

I find this a rather compelling document because if this is our Charles then it means that of Thomas and Agnes’s know children, Elizabeth, Agnes, John and Charles all live at 85 Main Street, Gorbals in 1851. That leaves only Patrick unaccounted for; on which question, see below.

I tried to follow Charles, his wife and daughter – and any other children – after this census return but found nothing. The next we hear of Charles is at his death in 1858.

Death of Charles Neil 21 Dec 1858

Patrick Neil baptised 26 Aug 1833 St. Andrew’s Cathedral, Glasgow

Patrick’s baptism is the only evidence I have for his existence. I have found him in no other records despite extensive searching.

John Neill born 14th April, baptised 4th July 1836 St. Andrew’s Cathedral, Glasgow

John is the last child born to Thomas and Agnes that I am aware of.

John is my 2 x great grandfather and his story is part of the main narrative that can be followed here: